Talk:Variant Stargates

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Example of a pre-printed Stargate Tile

Regarding the rules, there are still too many moving parts. I took this list form one of my posts to check where we are. --Meepledrone (talk) 10:50, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Do you think there might be any copyright issues ??? - I'm pretty sure that, for example, the BBC are very protective about anything Doctor Who related. Of course, the standard magic portal could be re-used for this purpose. Or we could introduce a "twister" as in "Wizard Of Oz". Wolnic (talk) 16:17, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

...Or even we could rename stargates as cosmic portals. There is no issue so far about that, I think. --Meepledrone (talk) 22:20, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Type of game we prefer

(meepledrone)

Radial (there is a main game you return to all the time) vs. Network (no main game)

Network games would allow more than 6 players with parallel games.

There is no limitation established here. We agreed that a network game can be considered. Depends on the nature of the missions. It is closed?

Wolnic (talk) 21:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC) I suspect that we may have more settings to document (although the first two are variations of the same Radial game you mention, and the second pair alternatives to your Network approach)

• Home World and one Off World, that all missions go to (because the players only have, or want to use, one spin-off game
• Home World and multiple Off Worlds - but always returning to the Home World
• Home World and multiple Off Worlds - with the possibility of bouncing on to a different Off World from the first one, but each mission being a short episode, with completion meaning a return to Home World
• Home World and (one or more) Off Worlds - where larger or full tile sets are considered leading to full simultaneous games, and the option included to bounce between the various worlds through the gates (more difficult to score?)

Player Arrangement

(meepledrone) Decide the player arrangement for the initial game and parallel games. This will help decide the size of mission parties and meeple coloring scheme consistent across games:

• 2-3 players: 1-player missions
• 4-6 players: 2-player missions are also allowed
• 6+ players: missions involve switching team members from games to maintain a maximum number of players per game

Missions - see later

This sounds OK to me, although there may be a chance that when one player is on an Off World mission, and another player pulls a SG tile, they could end up on the same Off World, especially if only one is being used. They could decide either to work independently, or combine and work as 2-player to complete one or both quicker. Depends if the missions are open or secret. Could the second player "complete" the first player's mission and steal the points? Wolnic (talk) 21:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

• Questions:
  • 1. Can a player have multiple meeples on different missions at the same time, if they draw a second SG tile while already on one?
    • I'd suggest not, and they replace SG tile in the bag and draw another tile. Wolnic (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Triggering Mechanism

Type of triggering mechanism:

• Tiles with printed stargate + destination tokens
• Neutral stargate tiles + destination tokens
  • + stargate tokens to mark which tile it's located on in both Home World and Off World (this may be useful when completing missions) Wolnic (talk) 21:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
• A combination of the above (because we feel this generous today)
  • because the artwork lends itself to it, or we want to make it easier, or harder, to complete the first or early missions Wolnic (talk) 21:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

There are still some questions to consider.

Generic Stargate Tile

Stargate tile(s)

• Mixed with the regular tiles.
• When drawn, it triggers the stargate action if the player decides. It is not mandatory.
• The stargate tile is shuffled with the remaining tiles before the next player's turn
  • I don't think so, it's either discarded or placed in front of the player going on the mission - otherwise the game will never end because the last tile keeps being put back in the bag because it's a SG tile! Wolnic (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

• Questions:
  • 1. How many stargate tiles: one, one per world, several per world? (meepledrone)
    • This will depend on the Radial/Network thing, number of players Wolnic (talk) 21:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
    • I envisage one Stargate in any world, so if using a tile with SG printed as part of it, then it must be the first SG tile to be drawn, but if it's the only one in the bag it may be the end of the game before it comes out. I see a situation where the printed tile is set at the side, and 4 or 6 generic tiles (depending on player numbers, etc) placed in the bag, and when the first is drawn, the player places the Stargate tile. When a later generic Stargate tile is drawn the player has the option of going on the mission Off World OR drawing another tile and placing it as normal. If there is no printed tile, then the person drawing the first generic SG tile, draws another tile, places it and places a Stargate token on it, then decides whether to go on an Off World mission, or not. Wolnic (talk) 21:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
  • 2. Should we have a limited number of identical tiles to limit the total number of stargate draws? (meepledrone)
    • I think this is probably the best way. The question remains how many in the game, but this will depend on the number of players and the size of the game. For example my feeling would be to suggest 4 for inclusion in a Base Game (probably regardless of the number of players) and 1-2 off-world locations, 6 for a Base Game and 2 Major Expansions, and more for anything larger Wolnic (talk) 12:03, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
  • 3. Can the mission be assigned to another player because they've not had a chance to go off-world, or to knock-back an opponent? Wolnic (talk) 21:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Arc Off-World token

Off World tokens

• Drawn from a bag or from stacks facedown after a stargate tile is drawn.
• Placed in front of player to indicate destination world.

• Questions:
  • 1. Off World Tokens returned to pool after leaving the destination world and going back to origin world?
    • Depends if there's some end of game scoring based on the number of completed missions, or whether it's just X points for completing a specific mission and no end bonus Wolnic (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
    • It also depends on whether there will be multiple trips to the same world (if there's only one Off World then no need to draw tokens, but also how many you want to print but potentially the same number as Stargate tiles being used) Wolnic (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
  • 2. What if missions are nested? You keep the tokens as a record of the missions/worlds you have to return to?
    • No need, in some ways, as you can always get back to Home World in one jump from ANY Off World (unless we wanted to get very complex and only be able to get to a specific Off World location VIA another one, but I think that's taking things too far at this stage! You may want to mark which Off World a player's meeple is on, so maybe discard any intermediate one Wolnic (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
    • I have another thought though, and that would be in the situation of multiple Off Worlds and the possibility of drawing a SG tile as part of the initial setup phase on the Off World - in this situation it means you automatically bump onto the next world (and don't draw any more tiles on the first Off World), but if it's part of the first group of normal tiles (depending on the mission, and rate of tile selection) then it's treated as optional (and as in the Home World). This may drop off depending on how we handle the action of going through the SG Wolnic (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Stargate Token

Stargate tokens

• Taken from a general token pool after the mission destination is defined.
• Placed on tiles on the origin and destination worlds (if not pre-printed) to mark the entry/exit point and a pivoting location to perform a mission, if needed.

• Questions:
  • 1. How many tokens are necessary? Two per spin-off? More?
    • There should only need to be one for the Home World, and one for each Off World, and not all would be required if using pre-printed tiles Wolnic (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Balance the number of jumps

This is included in the questions in bullet #2. Pending.

If you mean ensure that all players get an even opportunity to go off world that may be difficult to achieve (in the same way when using I&C, not everyone gets a Cathedral, or in a 2-player game, player 1 may get neither or both). There could be a limiting factor, that states that if you've had 2 missions, and you draw another SG tile in Home World, you MUST replace it and draw another tile. As noted above, being able to give the mission to another player is another option, or with multiple player missions, taking the player on your left or right might help balance things out Wolnic (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Missions

Decide what types of missions we want to implement

Missions should be simple: tile layouts (in a row), score features in particular, get points, place a figure in a feature... Not detailed, but we have discussed By Order of The King as a source of inspiration. Pending.

I'm wondering about having a first mission always being the same - to complete the four tiles orthogonally around the stargate tile. Then the missions could be random, such as have been mentioned already such as the 4 diagonal tiles around the gate, etc. The mechanism for assigning them will depend on the number of missions available, whether any can be repeated, how many visits to the same world, etc. Wolnic (talk) 23:06, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

• Generic missions applicable to all games
• Specific missions associated with a particular spin-off game - such as complete a temple in Arc - although it could be made more generic by placing four orthogonal tiles with a cloister, but I don't know if it would work in all spin-offs

Maybe also include "helper meeple" with the mission rather than having it as yet another dice roll.

Silly idea - for the Groundhog Day example, the mission notes would be as normal, but the last task would be "if the task is not completed after n turns all normal play stops, remove the laid tiles, return them to the bag/stack, and draw immediately again ..." and repeat until the task IS completed. The other players would just have to wait until the task was completed. The idea would wear thin after a time, but maybe as a one off!

A slight variation may be to have the first mission as above, then randomly select three mission cards and place them at one side. When the next gate and world are known, assuming it's not the first mission, the player can choose which of the three missions to complete on that trip - this decision may be based on the tile layout available at that time. After selection, a new mission is added, or the two mixed back with all the other missions, and three new ones placed. Is the selected mission discarded (it may be a one-time task) or mixed back again, after completion? This also depends on whether there are multiple off world settings, or just one. Of course some tasks may not be possible because they were selected and completed previously, or because time has moved on and more tiles have been placed which have (accidentally) completed the feature/mission Wolnic (talk) 11:44, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Final Scoring for Missions

Decide if stargates (printed or tokens) are involved in any final scoring mechanism for completed missions

Not discussed. Can this be part of the mission set up: some sort of meta-mission? Pending.

A bit like getting a promotion for successfully completing the most tasks?

Space Limitation

Define the coexistence of the worlds (table / rooms): For limited spaces we could suggest a bounded area. Check the images from Decar's Solomo variant (@Decar you are guilty -not Dan, this time- for reminding me of this solo variant): http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2859.0

Not discussed. In order to share the same table for multiple games does it make sense to define bounded domains? It depends on the missions. Pending.

And the size of table(s) available, number of players, mega-Carc Home World, or expecting larger layouts on Off World (for example, if playing with only one spin-off) Wolnic (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

First phase - working with compatible spin-offs and variants

Fine tune the rules with C1/C2/WE in mind for the sake of simplicity - Bear in mind meeple color schemes across games.

To be done. Pending.

Second phase - working with other spin-offs

Define later, how to add other spin-offs with different game mechanisms.

To de done. Pending.

Arc of the Covenant

Completion of towns and roads apply

Mayflower

Completion of towns and roads apply

Summarising My Thoughts (wolnic 21/7/19)

Apologies if I repeat (or have repeated) myself ...

Introduction

This expansion takes the concept of space travel via wormholes (as seen in the Stargate film and TV Series) through a series of stargates, allowing players to simultaneously play with a base game of Carcassonne, and various variants of the base game (Carc1 or Carc2 (as applicable), Winter Edition, Winter Download) and in the longer term, spinoff games such as Arc of the Covenant, Amazonas, Safari, Mayflower, etc. Missions may be taken on by a single follower, or possibly small teams, to pass through the Stargate to another world (spin-off), explore the world a little and complete a pre-assigned task, then return to the home world. Later missions could be to the same, or different worlds, depending on how many spin-offs and variants of the Carcassonne game are available to the players.

Components

• Stargate Tiles (game specific or generic)
• Stargate Tokens/Markers - used to mark location of a stargate in a particular world/spinoff game, if no pre-printed tile exists with the stargate on it
• Off World Tokens - to select destination world, if using more than one Off World location (spin-off game)

Preparation

• If the specific game has a pre-printed tile with Stargate on it, place it to one side. Mix the generic Stargate Tiles with all other tiles being used (for Home World) and repeat for each separate Off World location
• Place Stargate Tokens to one side
• Mix Off-World Tokens and place face down in a stack, or small bag (unless only one Off World location being used)
• Place any meeples, tokens, etc. specific to each spin-off game next to the location where the tiles will be laid out

Draw (And Action) A Tile

• Draw (the first) Stargate Tile in Home World - action re placement of tile, replacement tile, Stargate Token and Off-World token above. Depending on decision, keep or return Off World token. No Stargate tokens or Off-World tokens are actioned if ultimately decide not to go off world.
• Place Stargate Tile (if printed) for Off-World, or draw one random tile from Spin-off stack/bag, place it appropriately off to the side somewhere (to allow some expansion and not interfere with Home World game) and place a Stargate Token on it.
  • If including the option of multiple jumps, and a Stargate tile is drawn for the location of the stargate in the Spin-off, then repeat for the second (and subsequent) worlds.
  • (for consideration) Always include (at least) one Stargate Tile with the Off-World tile mix - if only using one Off World location, when it is drawn it is assumed there is a malfunction, and the mission is cancelled, or a stable wormhole can't be established at this time - may want to consider placing the original Stargate tile back into the main bag if this happens, but discard the spin-off Stargate Tile so it's not a repeating scenario
• If draw the second (and subsequent) Stargate Tile in Home World (let's assume there's no chance of multiple SG tiles in the spin-off for now), if decide not to go Off World, draw a replacement tile and place it as normal
• (for consideration) You may give the Stargate tile to another player instead of taking your turn, and the order of play passes to them missing out any other players who may be next in turn
• (for consideration) if draw a second Stargate Tile while you already have a meeple off world, then you cannot send a second one and must draw a replacement tile and place the Stargate Tile back into the mix

Place A Meeple

• If draw a Stargate Tile you may place a meeple (from your supply) on any normal feature of the tile placed or go through the Stargate on a mission to an Off World location. If the latter, place meeple on the Stargate Tile, and it will remain there until the mission is over.
• (for consideration) If no meeple available from your pool, you may call one back that was previously deployed, without scoring.
• Take one meeple for the spin-off game into your supply. Optional: assign a second meeple as a local helper, that can also be used to score points (equivalent to The Phantom) or an extra tile each turn (The Builder). This could be part of the mission notes.
• now see Actions Off-World

Scoring and End Game Scoring (in Home World)

To be discussed

Actions Off-World

Preparation: Select a number of tiles at random from the game (maybe 20?) and mix them and place them face-down in a stack, or bag. If more are required for a larger off world experience, use some more than that.

As noted previously, I have wondered about the mechanism for a player when they have chosen to go on an Off World mission. Can they choose to play in the Home World instead of, or as well as, Off World? If they are restricted to a single tile draw in the Off World, then in a small Home World game with lots of players the impact may be significant on scoring. So I had wondered if, after placing the Stargate Tile in the Spin-off (or more likely, the following turn), the player draws four tiles from the Spin-off bag/stack and if they can place them orthogonally around the gate, then they complete the mission immediately, scoring any points for a completed feature (this might be either a 2-tile road or city), then return to Home World (or they could choose to stay and play on at one tile per turn (as normal, deploying tiles and followers to score features) selecting tiles from either Home or Off Worlds as they feel inclined.

When a mission is completed (or the player decides to return to Home World without completing the mission) the spin-off meeple is returned to a general supply to the side, the meeple on the Home World Stargate tile is returned to the player's supply (and any mission scoring applied). Any "helper" meeple (if using) is also returned to the spin-off supply. Optional: the "helper" meeple returns with the player's meeple, and can be used for future off-world missions, but not deployed in the Home World.

There has been some discussion (see below) of the number of tiles that can be selected each "turn" in the off world location - this could reflect the way time passes in that world compared to Home World - thus 1, 2 or 3 tiles per turn could be drawn (sequentially and actioned, or all together), perhaps based on the Flier dice (or D6 (1,2 = 1; 3,4 = 2; 5,6 = 3)); the dice roll could be part of the mission instructions.

If a second player comes through the gate to an Off World location while a previous player's follower is still there, they can choose to each do their own thing, or combine missions and work as a team - does the second player score the same as the first if only one mission is completed and they declare they are working together?

Oops, just realised some of what I've noted above are in the following section ... Wolnic (talk) 23:37, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Proposal of walkthroughs

With so many open issues, I think a way to get things a bit down to earth would be the do several walkthroughs of the game with different scenarios:

W1. Performing a touch-and-go mission. We can explore here:

• Additional meeples in the destination world: Are they proxies? Should they go back to the origin world (rescue missions)?
• Different game speeds (N tiles per turn): Can this be decided by throwing a Flier die?
• Different mission types: Draw K tiles and build something/score something/...?
• Different results of the mission:Additional scoring on success?

W2. Performing simultaneous/linked missions in different worlds. We can explore here everything in W1 plus:

• Additional meeples in the destination world: Can you move them back and forth as an additional Move Wood action? Is there a meeple global economy in place across all the spin-offs?
• Simultanenous games: In your turn you may decide which active world you want to play? This would be like two ongoing games at a time that may need to collaborate (depends on mission type, global meeple economy again,...)

W3. Perform a mission nested in another. We can explore the generalization of W1+W2.

--Meepledrone (talk) 10:50, 21 July 2019 (UTC)